Comments from the darkness where only a den of iniquity exists or perhaps I'm in the White House.
Bush's English Language Command Is Torture.
Published on June 5, 2005 By Chuck In Current Events

Our beloved President In A Bubble recently stated it was absurd to label our Gitmo and Abu Ghraib prison facilities gulags. His statement intrigued me since awareness his readings extended into Russian literature past the teletubbies is surprising or perhaps he picked it up from Valentin Putin. Either way, its doubtful he really understands what a gulag is. A gulag is commonly defined as a system of prisons and labor camps especially for political prisoners, in the old Soviet Union or any place or situation regarded as like such a prison. Hmmm, methinks George has got it wrong again. It would seem Abu Ghraib automatically qualifies under this definition with Gitmo not very far behind with recent revelations. Sadly, our President has bit the big wrong once again, but will never admit it. To admit such would risk being called, just like Arnuld says, "a girly man." And George W. Bush is the gosh darn best Maine Texan who can't ride a horse, tell the truth or admit a mistake.

There needs to be a distinction made from legitimate interrogation techniques and perverted cruelty. What was seen at Abu Ghraib was beyond the pale of conventional military doctrine with only the small fry being punished. The military is guided by numerous directives including the rules of land warfare which our leaders have conveniently forgotten. There's no doubt the same occurred at Gitmo according to what the Army finally admitted today. Any time one sees sexual humiliation, among other things, indicates the system has suffered a breakdown and only pathos results. The inability to break someone mentally and resorting to primitive techniques indicates not only a lack of discipline, but overall inability to achieve results through knowledge, skill and guile.

Secondly, its very hard to generalize about doing to "them" what they are doing to us. Who is exactly "them?" According to statements made by the Secretary of Defense and reinforced by the President, "them" are basically anyone in the warzone appearing to be Muslim, who are all terrorists anyway, possessing no rights under signed treaties. The White House and SecDef did a turnaround on this, but the damage had already been done. Convince the average scared undertrained GI the other side, "them" is inhuman and the results. Beware whenever any president relates how much we value life and the other side doesn't.

Bravado comments are a typical kneejack reaction to anyone who doesn't understand the nature of guerrila warfare. Its ugly with no boundaries; unforeseen combat anytime, anywhere, at any moment with a duration of seconds. The US response with conventional military strategy instead of trained counterinsurgency forces is reminiscent of Vietnam. The inevitable result is chaos and wholesale slaughter of innocents and guilty alike>the old "kill them all and let God separate them" syndrome. Troops trained in COIN are the necessary ingredient for any success in Iraq and Afghanistan; not conventional troops who will react as negatively to "search and destroy" as their predecessors did in Vietnam. Send the people trained for the job to do the job; anything else is a disservice to our troops and nation.

Lastly, much is read regarding the validity of torture, but how many of those uttering these remarks have ever seen it? How many have underwent it? My training in the military had a special block where torture was applied in a most realistic fashion to force understanding of what being captured meant. I won't belabor the details, but can relate it wasn't pleasant. Try this...stand against a wall, move back approximately four steps and then place your forehead against the wall. Stay that way for 3, 4 or 5 hours until your head feels like it will explode; all the time constant music or speeches are blaring; a light is constantly on; you stand in your own urine or feces; and interrogators constantly yelling in your ears. This is minor, but chances are many of you couldn't endure much less talk about it later. Your head will ring for days!!!

Finally, torture was used widely in Vietnam beyond the norm ranging from bamboo under the fingernails to the Bell Telephone hour-placing portable telephone electrical wires on the testicles and then ringing which sent a heavy electrical jolt for Uncle Sam. It didn't matter whether they were VC or not, some just enjoyed doing it. GIs are no different from anyone else when placed in uncompromising situations without adequate leadership-they resort to whatever is needed to get the job done regardless. GIs flung ration cans at Vietnamese children since they were "them," not human, inflicting injury and death. Sad, but true and seen by many including my good friend, Shawn, who threw a c-rats can forcing the child to fall under the wheels of a 4X4. He is 100% disabled from PTSD and other afflictions stemming from his Vietnam experiences and still wakes after seeing the child's face in his persistent dreams. An incident 35 years old just happened today to him and many others.

Don't go into a war like Iraq with moral platitudes, place the US on a pedestal, send over those untrained in interrogation, incarceration or even the Geneva Convention, subject them to the rigors of guerilla warfare, place them in no-win positions between CIA-MI-White House-Outsource Operatives with conflicting orders and then expect good things to happen????!!!! This is like sending out half-way trained police officers to get the job done and then turn your backs when the bad happens. And it would. I would expect those of you who glorify this type of unprofessional perverse cruelty to fully support increased DVA hospital funding where many of these young men and women will end up with severe mental afflictions as a result of what they have seen and done. Let us hope they won't be deserted like many have by the DOD and VA in the past. This that to those is already ocurring to those injured physically, but not much is said about that. Supporting the troops is a 100% committment, not just the glory supposed to be with it.

If the current administration wanted the post-war job to be done right, then they would have dispatched the most highly trained, most motivated,educated in Arab language/studies and exceedingly capable people to do the job instead of those given makeshift assignments just to fill a slot. Shoddy leadership seeps downward until theh inevitable result is chaos like the final years of action in Vietnam. Again you have the willing led by incapable doing a job for the ungrateful. They went into battle witout enough water, ammunition, armor, medical supplies and god knows, what else. If you support the troops, demand the very best for them-no substitutes. There is no substitute for leadership and our wonderful servicemembers don't have it. The actions of a few miscreant officers and enlisted unfairly characterize those whose service is honorable. The brave ones are overshadowed by the perverse actions of a few whose superiors develop a coverup inflicting damage to our military, nation and world standing. Please, forget the rhetoric and demand leadership to correct the darkness threatening to envelop us again. Its time for the President and others to get out of the bubble for a good dose of reality.

By the way, if you don't believe our military is in crisis, check on what just happened on the USS Nimitz; and the hazing exerted on naval vessels in the war zone. Its symbolic.....

Comments
on Jun 05, 2005

By: Chuck
Posted: 6/5/2005 1:14:15 AM on Coatimundi's Den
Our beloved President recently stated it was absurd to call our Gitmo and Abu Ghraid gulags. His statement intrigued me since I wasn't aware his reading had extending into Russian literature or perhaps, he picked it up for Valentin Putin. Either way, its doubtful he really understands what a gulag is. A gulag is defined as a system of prisons and labor camps especially for political prisoners, in the old Soviet Union or any place or situation regarded as like such a prison. Hmmm, methinks George has got it wrong again. It would seem Abu Ghraib automatically qualifies under this definition with Gitmo not very far behind with recent revelations




And I think you should reread what you've wrote. Gitmo in NO WAY qualifies as a gulag! By your own words "A gulag is defined as a system of prisons ". Key word here being "system"! Explain to me how "one" prison can be a system of prisons? Oh and what happened at Abu was done by a VERY few individuals who obviously thought they were outside the system. And just an FYI it's NOT up to our "leaders" to enforce code of conduct! That's up to military brass!

And yes... it's called SERE training! Something all aircrews have to go through. And unless your SPECWAR or the like then there are a lot of peopl who have gone through that.

And "what" has happenedd onboard the Nimitz? I can find NO mention anywhere, about anything bad happening on board. As far as naval hazing goes... are you now or have you ever been part of ship's company while crossing the equator? I have and what happened has been part of naval tradtion for a lot longer than either one of us has been alive!

Go to this page and READ! And while your at it pay attention to the dates involved!Link
on Jun 05, 2005
Bravo!!!!!!

Chuck, thank you for posting this. As you can see, our in-house passive agressive has already posted his support of the disassembling dubya regime. I find it so horrific when our regime sends the troops into battle without adequate supplies, then adding insult to injury, cuts the VA health and hospital budgets for those same troops, along with the vets from previous service and wars.

We have the most corrupt administration this country has ever, ever seen. Clinton lied about a blow job. So what? Dubya lied about WMD's and thousands upon thousands have died. We've demolished entire neighborhoods, but they're just "them" so it doesn't matter.

As much as this travesty is costing in lives, it's obviously costing billions in dollars. What a cruel waste of resources. And, as much as I hate the fact that our tax dollars would go to Iraq continually, I would be outraged at this point if the US does not step up and pay war reparations for years to come.

The dubya regime has caused criminal hurt to the Iraqis. The dubya regime has caused unprecedented neglect to this country. The dubya regime is dismantling environmental regulations as fast as they can get away with it, which will hurt our future generations.

If we, as a nation, don't wake up soon, we're going to characterized in the history as little better than other fascist and colonial regimes. The dubya regime is leaving the very worst legacy that this nation must endure, and it's going to take some real diplomacy, smarts, and money to make it right. Hmmmmmmmm.......... maybe a woman at the helm............

Thanks, Chuck. You've done well here.
on Jun 05, 2005
My thanks to both of you for posting replies.

The USS Nimittz, Navy Times, 6 June 2005, page 14, 16 sailors were busted for metamphetaine use and distribution aboard ship. Not only were they speeding during duty shifts, but making a hefty profit from their shipmantes and ports visisted. All were court-martialed, fined, confined and received bad conduct discharges.

Sorry, SERE training was a cakewalk compared to other courses passed. There are some above that...what I was referencing was a bloc during a course at Fort Bragg NC, the JFK Center. Little more intense than SERE and meant to be. The MI School at Fort Huachuca used to offer a very realistic POW block of training which caused eyelids to twitch, but its continued existence cannot be vouched for.

Your focus on the first part of the definition is noted, but what of the second and concluding portion: any place or situation regarded as like such a prison. Whether one likes it or not, the President of the United States is the Commander-In-Chief of the Armed Forces. Thus when he or any member of his administration states anyone incarcerated is not protected by established treaty, i.e. the Geneva Convention, the President is responsible. This impacts the entire military particularly those caught in untenable situations and is reinforced by a CIC and SecDef who openly stated terrorists have no rights under the Geneva Convention. Whether he likes it or not, the CIC is responsible for everything occurring in the military and delegates responsiblity to sworn oath bound officers to administrate. In this case, the President has to be responsible for his words, his message and implication since two hats are worn. Thus the stage is set for a tragedy and denigration of our military when disavowal is not given.
.
Abu Ghraib extended upward towards even the President. If you recall, the SecDef had signed special torture authorization, but conveniently forgot those interred there were petty criminals by any nation's standards-not even COIN suspects. Those court martialed were a small group, but intentionally so. Officers received lenient treatment considering the acts committed which will affect only their careers, not their legal status. What about those outsource advisors (Titan Corp.) and MI who advised and assisted. None even admonished as o yet, but we sure nailed those E-5s and below who were caught in pictures.

Again check the Navy Times, 6 June 2005, page 8, an article entitled Hazing In The War Zone which resulted in an being sacked, 4 sailors being kicked out and 3 others punished Hazing endures beyond our naval tradition to our primary progenitor, the British Navy which learned a bitter lesson much to their dismay. They found proper treatment of sailors often results in increased loyalty and work. There will always be certain traditions as you referenced which are imbedded and allowed, but others are frowned upon or banned by regulation. Remember the fine art of keelhauling?

Whether we like it or not, leadership has failed our troops as in a prior notable incident, My Lai. When it rolls down hill, only the little people are caught while the policy progenitors escape with their reputation and pensions intact.